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Best quality gas

sad

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#21
@DGatzby i don’t think I have one, but will look and see.

Most of us energy market segment employees have had to go through some type of training that helps us understand the value chain and the entire process of how it goes from crude out to the gas pump.
 

sad

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#22
Here’s a pretty good one at a high level.

09B33259-7FFE-48F7-847C-25D3C33B7EA2.png
 

sad

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#23
Also, here’s a really good graphic that demonstraights the type of business there is in the valu chain.

Integrated - upstream, midstream downstream, has all pieces of value chain all in one company. Examples -> Exxon Mobil, Chevron, BP,

Pure stream companies focus on one piece of the value chain
Upstream - exploration and production; I.e. find stuff in the ground, put up well to extract it. Examples -> Devon Energy, Duke, Chesapeake
Downstream - refine raw materials into product; gasoline, aviation, diesel, motor oil, grease, asphalt, etc. Examples -> Phillips66, Marathon

Typically, an upstream org will have some Midstream processing within their org. Same with downstream.
A7E23ADD-5FA1-4680-B0AE-D93B0B7124DF.jpeg
 

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#24
Gotta think logically.

Logically, if everyone says they're top tier then not everyone is telling the truth.
 

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#25
Gotta think logically.

what your noticing is reflective of two factors..... a) there are only a few major refiners b) most of the names up there must buy gas from marketers.

I work for Phillips66, and approximately 50% of our revenue comes from "unbranded marketing". Mean we sell to the Costcos, Quick Trips, and the like. They brand it as their own. This is true with not only fuels, but also motor oils and other lubricants.

Also worth noting that one company may have multiple brand names the sell under as their own. Legacy brand names.... or regional brands...

Using us as an example, our very own fuels are branded as our own under: 76, Conoco, Phillips66, Jet (European brand), etc. Add to that all the unbranded marketing and although you may not recognize our brand, hate our guts, or even swear off buying from us, you pretty much can’t avoid buying our fuels... And we don’t give a shit what name you buy us under, just buy us.

Think of it like this.... for any given brand of fuel or motor oil.... "is there a refinery?” With nearly every name on that list the answer is "No".... There is no Quick Trip refinery. Where the heck did what you were buying come from? Since there is no Quick trip refinery, they had to get it from someplace. The question is “where?”
No Quick Trip refinery? Dang it, just when I thought I knew what was going on in the world *grin*.

I appreciate the insider explanation of rebranding. With your company, if what I read yesterday was correct, Phillips 66 merged (or acquired) 76 and kept it as a separate entity. Keeping the brand names, if nothing else, may help keep the anti-trust lawyers away. Also there is brand identification (loyalty?) to exploit. One of the biggest blunders in the airline industry was when Delta bought most of Pan Am's assets in 1991 - their routes overseas, 41 wide body jets, the New York shuttle with some 727's, and took about 6,000 Pan Am employees. What Delta didn't obtain was the rights to the Pan Am logo, which along with Coca-Cola were at the time the two most recognizable corporate logo in the world. The day Delta finalized the deal they painted out the Pan Am logos and put up the Delta widget - didn't hire a marketing staff from Europe - and (along with the recession of 91-92) promptly started flying empty airlines across the Atlanta. Lost about one million a day doing that for two years and eventually pretty much divested the former Pan Am assets.

So what is your take on the Top Tier gasoline designation? Are non-Top Tier gasolines widespread, and if so should we avoid them?
 

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#26
Class action lawsuit against Shell (about) 15 years ago or so, due to additives gumming up fuel sensors.
That being said, I now use Shell, Wal-Mart, or whichever 93 is cheapest.
I agree... but mainly because my only source of 93 is freaking walmart out here (we have the refinery for christ sake). And they only started making it available 2 years ago. Bah hum bug.
 

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#27
So @Finface if the pump motor is off, the valve (which is before the drain/supply hose) is closed, gravity allows most of if not all of the fuel to drain out, right? I don’t remember anytime when I picked up a gas nozzle and more than a few drops came out before inserting into my car, do you? Where is this mysterious dilution taking place? @sad you have a drawing or flow diagram of a gas pump?
Hi DGatzby,

Far be it from me to engage too deeply on a topic like this with an engineer who designs hydroelectric systems for a living! I ain't no fool!

I did intend my sharpshooting pump gas octane "tip" to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek. We car enthusiasts tend to be pretty anal-retentive (discredited Freudian term...new less potty-referencing PC term Obsessive Compulsive) about caring for our cars. Why not obsess about the octane content of every last precious drop of gasoline *grin*? I really did read, when I first got my car, that there is residual fuel left in the hose. Found a couple of links today to back up it could be "a thing". Usually it is just as easy to plan my fill-ups with potentially diluted octane fuel in mind as not. If doing it satisfies a mild OCD urge, even if the rationale is about as irrational as counting steps from your car in a distant parking lot to your office door, and going back to do it again if it isn't an even number, or hand-washing dozens of times every day (Wait! We're supposed to be doing that!), no harm. It would just be wasted brain cell energy to worry about it. I freely admit I'm just indulging my OCD.

For the OP asking about gasoline I did make two notes to myself when I got my car as follows;

"Don’t run the car out of gas - the fuel lubricates the electric fuel pump. Fill up at 1/4 tank with 93 octane - 91 octane minimum."

"Don’t top off gas - can damage the fuel system."

I hereby nominate myself for a new competitive monthly and yearly category that Bull might want to set up - Most Obsessive Compulsive Hellcat Owner - call it the MOCHO award. Exhibit A - Finface writes excessive notes to himself which may, or may not, be true. Exhibit B - he writes long-ass forum posts sometimes about goofy shit.

It would be an award I would accept with humble gratitude, given the level of OCD expressed here daily about waxes, wheel gloss products and catch cans (I have one!).

Exhibit B in MOCHO competition for Finface - before I select a fuel grade I've (sometimes, not always dammit!) inserted the fuel nozzle, lifted the hose, and squeezed the handle and had "some" gas flow in. Free gas! Yippee! No, not really - that gas was going into my tank anyway. More to the "free gas" point, after I shut off the fuel at the pump I've also squeezed the handle and had "some" gas flow into my tank. I paid for that gas still in the hose, right? Right? Come on, 'fess up! Who else has done this?

Nasty Flight Attendant "cheap airline captain joke" time!
"How was copper wire invented?"
"Two airline captains fighting over a penny!"
Flight attendants can be so cruel.

I did a quick google search just now "is there gas left in the hose after you replace it that the next car will get?", and found a 2008 WSJ article saying there is "about half a gallon" from the previous buyer in a single hose system. And a motorcycle forum post where a poster claimed to have contacted Shell and gotten this answer;

"On the use of a single hose to dispense multiple grades of fuel...the fuel grade change point is directly above the hose connection resulting in a residual volume of 0.56 liters for small diameter hose, or 0.78 liters if the pump happens to be equipped with a non-standard large diameter hose. While this amount will have only a very small effect on a typical car fill up, the effect is larger on 2 cycle equipment or a motorcycle tank with limited capacity."

About half to 3/4's of a quart, or possibly up to half a gallon? As we've observed there isn't anything like these amounts gravity flowing from the hose when we squeeze the handle with the pump shut off. Shell (supposedly) in any case says, "only a very small effect on a typical car fill up". Effect on a 700 HP Hellcat purchasing 91 octane fuel? Way above my pay grade. Here in Kentucky premium is 93, so...

...hey, time to go wash my hands!

Best,

Finface
 

sad

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#28
No Quick Trip refinery? Dang it, just when I thought I knew what was going on in the world *grin*.

I appreciate the insider explanation of rebranding. With your company, if what I read yesterday was correct, Phillips 66 merged (or acquired) 76 and kept it as a separate entity. Keeping the brand names, if nothing else, may help keep the anti-trust lawyers away. Also there is brand identification (loyalty?) to exploit. One of the biggest blunders in the airline industry was when Delta bought most of Pan Am's assets in 1991 - their routes overseas, 41 wide body jets, the New York shuttle with some 727's, and took about 6,000 Pan Am employees. What Delta didn't obtain was the rights to the Pan Am logo, which along with Coca-Cola were at the time the two most recognizable corporate logo in the world. The day Delta finalized the deal they painted out the Pan Am logos and put up the Delta widget - didn't hire a marketing staff from Europe - and (along with the recession of 91-92) promptly started flying empty airlines across the Atlanta. Lost about one million a day doing that for two years and eventually pretty much divested the former Pan Am assets.

So what is your take on the Top Tier gasoline designation? Are non-Top Tier gasolines widespread, and if so should we avoid them?
We (Phillips66) have been operating as one distinct organization for decades. Even with mergers/acquisitions. We’re a single org with a bunch of brands. No protections necessary.

Now if Exxon/Mobil (largest integrated) wanted to buy Chevron (2nd largest if memory serves), then the feds would be like "back the truck up" to them.

Top Tier? Government specification that’s easy to hit. Plus add in the fact that so many non-refiners are selling re-branded fuel that already meets the spec. The combination of these two facts make the list of Top Tier sellers rather long.
 

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#29
Speedway is a big one that’s not on the list.
 
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#30
Best quality gas (and price) for me is Kwik Trip. It is a top tier gasoline and I have a company Kwik Trip credit card to use for gas purchases. It is a great perk!!
So far I am getting 5,800 mpg on my car as I haven`t paid for a tank of gas yet --
 

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#31
So @Finface if the pump motor is off, the valve (which is before the drain/supply hose) is closed, gravity allows most of if not all of the fuel to drain out, right? I don’t remember anytime when I picked up a gas nozzle and more than a few drops came out before inserting into my car, do you? Where is this mysterious dilution taking place? @sad you have a drawing or flow diagram of a gas pump?
DGatzby,

(This is edited after I got some calculations from an engineer at Husky Corporation)

Replying again to you, but for all interested, OCD-impaired, high-octane sharpshooters the following arcane knowledge is offered. I got a response from my friend, who owns Husky Corporation. Husky makes and sells breakaway fuel nozzles and hoses for gas pumps internationally.

Assumptions - uniform interior dimension of hose along entire 10” length (common hose length), and hose laid out straight. These assumptions mean the hoses are long cylinders with varying interior radii. The Husky engineer said 3 engineers checked the numbers, but being retired I looked up how to check it.

Volume = Pi (3.14 is about Pi) times the radius squared in inches, times height in inches will yield volume in cubic inches.
Google tells me that 1 cubic inches = 0.00432900431 US gallons. Yep, they're correct!

Hose Size Volume - Gallons Weight lbs.
5/8" .159 .967

3/4” .229 1.39

1” .408 2.48

My friend's comment was, "The amount of fuel in the hose is negligible as determined by state weights reg and the federal ASTM. It has been declared insignificant in North America. Europe still uses one hose for each grade because of European resistance to change. With today's engines the amount of octane degradation would not be noticeable as the computer degrades engine performance to compensate for it. That's why you never hear engine knock anymore."

His conclusion is the most common conclusion I saw browsing around the internet. I have no idea if a dilution of 87 octane in a 1" hose - the .408 gallons of it contained in the hose from a previous customer - combined with 10 gallons of fresh 91 octane premium being purchased flowing behind it, combined with an existing 8 gallons of premium already in our 18.5 gallon capacity Challenger tanks would have any detectable effect on performance in a quarter mile drag race. I do know that some high-functioning tuners on this forum take close looks at knock sensor readouts and such and I'd be interested in whether they care, or not, just because I'm curious.
 
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sad

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#32
🤯 my head just exploded. LOL
 

Finface

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#33
🤯 my head just exploded. LOL
Ha Ha! Certainly not my intent, sad. My friend who owns Husky is someone I was introduced to about 20 years ago. He and some of his buddies did an annual ski trip and I was invited along for the week.

It is my intent by participating in this forum to learn the truth about our cars from more experienced owners/drivers. There is much for me to learn about engines, suspensions, tires, wheels, electronics, fuels - Hellcat ownership combines so much "stuff". If delving deeply into a topic results in "TMI", too much information, I can only say the beauty of a forum set up like this one is set up is...people can skim over, or ignore, posts that don't appeal to them.

I hope you, TrackDay, DGatzby and others who enjoy nitty-gritty discussions (for the most part) and like to be teachers continue to share your insights. There is nothing like experience.

I'll try not to be "that guy", the guy who in my early ground school classes would ask questions like, "How many rivets are there in the wing of an A-4?"

Well, nobody really asked that question, but we did get down "in the weeds" on plenty of other stuff.

Best,

Finface
 

sad

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#34
Ha Ha! Certainly not my intent, sad. My friend who owns Husky is someone I was introduced to about 20 years ago. He and some of his buddies did an annual ski trip and I was invited along for the week.

It is my intent by participating in this forum to learn the truth about our cars from more experienced owners/drivers. There is much for me to learn about engines, suspensions, tires, wheels, electronics, fuels - Hellcat ownership combines so much "stuff". If delving deeply into a topic results in "TMI", too much information, I can only say the beauty of a forum set up like this one is set up is...people can skim over, or ignore, posts that don't appeal to them.

I hope you, TrackDay, DGatzby and others who enjoy nitty-gritty discussions (for the most part) and like to be teachers continue to share your insights. There is nothing like experience.

I'll try not to be "that guy", the guy who in my early ground school classes would ask questions like, "How many rivets are there in the wing of an A-4?"

Well, nobody really asked that question, but we did get down "in the weeds" on plenty of other stuff.

Best,

Finface
No worries... don’t hold back. I say what I did 100% in jest. I also enjoy the detailed conversations. I like hearing other people’s thoughts on common issues.
 

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#35
:rolleyes:
 

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#36
Just a note on "Top Tier"
The owners manual says use a station that's designated a "Top Tier" station due to quality of detergents etc. In my travels from San Diego to VA (not in my Red Eye), I hit a lot of different stations and even at home in San Diego I've hit a lot of the ones mentioned but only a few actually have their "Top Tier" designations visible at the pump. I go out of my way a few miles to go to a BP that is high traffic and has all their "Top Tier" markings on each pump etc. I'm not saying that it's not "Top Tier" if it has no marking, but if you look you will see it varies from place to place.
Top tier.jpg .
 

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#37
I get a cold chill down the back of my neck every time I see a pump picture with this as the highest option.
1612792645196.png
 

Mike L.

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#38
For the last 3 years I switch between 76 to Exxon /Mobil in the Hellcat and my tuned GMC 6.2. Both have a rough idle with 76 and smooth idle with Mobil. Both have a smoother acceleration with Mobil. Both seem quicker with Mobil. I could be full of shit; but I don't thnk so.
 

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#39
If you live West of Texas, you're stuck with 91 Octane. Glad to have the car in VA now where 93 is the norm.
 
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I like in a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio and only use Shell in my cars especially 93 octane in my Porsche 911 and have had no issues.
 

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