Is Racing on 93 "Safe"? Not really.

[PaVaSteeler]

So now I'm confused.

While at Challengerfest this past year, I was planning on adding some race gas to "stay safe." From what I understand, it's to raise the octane a bit to help reduce or prevent short term knock retard.

I mentioned it to one of the people helping you run Challengerfest and was told it would be a waste of money because I wasn't tuned for it and the engine couldn't use it (paraphrasing, but that's what I took from the comment). I wasn't trying to "use" it for ET, I just wanted to stay as safe as possible.

What am I missing?

I might be wrong, but I think that's the point of this post; boosting the octane a little as a safeguard, not as a performance enhancer...at least, that's how I'm reading it.

 

[Mean Cat]

If you don't want to risk possibly breaking anything then you should not be racing. No matter what you do or how it's tuned things can happen so first of all know that. I have seen cars blow engines on race gas & e85 too. I agree that no one should race on straight 93 without a mix of race gas or an octane booster for some safety.
When I was stock boost tuned on 93 I still ran a splash of boostane when racing but it was not tuned on boostane.
Now on 2.85 tuned on 93, I still use 2.5 oz. of boostane & have always said that.
I'm going to check race gas price at the track & may switch but I know boostane is cheaper.
Even if boostane (used in moderation & not a whole bottle to a tank like some have done) leaves some orange color on plugs & O2's, is there any concrete proof that it's not still performing like it should even with the orange coloring ?

 

[vortecd]

If you don't want to risk possibly breaking anything then you should not be racing.

Now you tell me, I'm done racing

 

[Mean Cat]

Now you tell me, I'm done racing

Smart man, you will save lots of money !

 

[jonx96]

Smart man, you will save lots of money !

I always thought the smartest person was the one going the fastest

 

[Mean Cat]

I always thought the smartest person was the one going the fastest

That's debatable

 

[Speedy!]

Is it possible that the knock sensors are too sensitive?

No, that's where the test I did splashing in a couple gallons of 109 octane unleaded race fuel came in. You can see the reduction in knock when that fuel was added. When you change pulleys you do have to adjust the knock sensors as the smaller pulleys are noisier, but that's a different conversation vs stock.

So now I'm confused.

While at Challengerfest this past year, I was planning on adding some race gas to "stay safe." From what I understand, it's to raise the octane a bit to help reduce or prevent short term knock retard.

I mentioned it to one of the people helping you run Challengerfest and was told it would be a waste of money because I wasn't tuned for it and the engine couldn't use it (paraphrasing, but that's what I took from the comment). I wasn't trying to "use" it for ET, I just wanted to stay as safe as possible.

What am I missing?

Whoever told you that was WRONG. This has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with safety. If you're beating on the car you should have fuel in the tank to handle that and 93 ain't it much less 91 (yikes).

@PaVaSteeler naturally aspirated 6.4 isn't included in this discussion. I've not reviewed a log from that motor but I doubt you'd need to worry. Supercharged cars are a different animal.

 

[Idoru99]

I might be wrong, but I think that's the point of this post; boosting the octane a little as a safeguard, not as a performance enhancer...at least, that's how I'm reading it.

That's why I'm confused - I read one thing here (opinions I respect) and was told something completely different (opinion of someone I feel I should respect - as they were helping run a drag racing event).

 

[Idoru99]

No, that's where the test I did splashing in a couple gallons of 109 octane unleaded race fuel came in. You can see the reduction in knock when that fuel was added. When you change pulleys you do have to adjust the knock sensors as the smaller pulleys are noisier, but that's a different conversation vs stock.



Whoever told you that was WRONG. This has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with safety. If you're beating on the car you should have fuel in the tank to handle that and 93 ain't it much less 91 (yikes).

@PaVaSteeler naturally aspirated 6.4 isn't included in this discussion. I've not reviewed a log from that motor but I doubt you'd need to worry. Supercharged cars are a different animal.

@Speedy! I won't post who it was in the open, as I may not have explained what I was saying correctly, or I misconstrued what I heard - and I'm not in the habit of throwing people too far under the bus. I'll send you a note in a private chat for clarification.

 

[PaVaSteeler]

@PaVaSteeler naturally aspirated 6.4 isn't included in this discussion. I've not reviewed a log from that motor but I doubt you'd need to worry. Supercharged cars are a different animal.

Since your post here pointed me towards this particular rabbit hole, I've done a little digging. Came across this series of articles from Engine Labs from 2017-2018.

Interesting set of results from the end of their testing...it seems there's very little improvement from 93 octane + an octane booster through C16 and Meth injection in terms of RWHP gains (see picture below; links to articles at bottom).

Granted, their test vehicle was a blown 'Vette, but as I've come to learn over the years, if @Speedy! suggests something is worth doing to protect one's vehicle, them I'm going to look into it and do it.

This thread, and the article(s) below, have given me some questions to ask my builder/tuner.




Series of article links, in order
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-t...els-octane-additives-and-injections-showdown/

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/dyno-testing/the-big-fuel-test-boostane-adds-24-rwhp/

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/dyno-testing/the-big-fuel-test-meth-injection-adds-42-rwhp/

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/dyno-testing/the-big-fuel-test-part-4-race-fuels-fight-back/

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/dyno-testing/big-fuel-test-part-5-e85-versus-winner-crowned/

 

[Speedy!]

@Idoru99 you'll get your most accurate information here from folks who actually own Hellcats. My data in post one is very clear.

 

[SilverBillet]

I never trust today’s pump gas. No matter what I’m racing, I go to the pumps at the track and add some racing gas.

 

[Idoru99]

@Idoru99 you'll get your most accurate information here from folks who actually own Hellcats. My data in post one is very clear.

Your data is clear - thanks! I'll be doing at least that in the future.

Thanks for posting this - I know it sure as hell piqued my interest.

 

[Mean Cat]

View attachment 63300
View attachment 63301

Interesting that on the chart that 93 + Boostane is only 1% lower than MS109

 

[PaVaSteeler]

Interesting that on the chart that 93 + Boostane is only 1% lower than MS109

Read the second article (2nd link I posted). They come right out and admit their findings would "light the internet on fire), but confirm that their test results were solid; 93 + an octane booster performed comparably (and far cheaper than) the MS109 and others, up to the point where they introduced methane injection.

 

[Speedy!]

I have seen those articles before and they have some good info, but miss a few things too.

An octane additive "should" perform the same as a race fuel all other variables being equal. If one could be produced that didn't leave deposits it would be a great option for the weekend racer. I didn't see the deposit listed as a con for the octane booster, so perhaps the author(s) weren't aware, and those articles are 5 years old as well.

They stopped E85 at only an E40 mix. They still gained a lot and beat out race gasoline, but had they continued and had a fuel system to support full E85 imagine how that might have looked. My flex fuel tune doesn't even start upping power until E40 and then only marginally, and it continues to add power until full E85 is detected. In my track testing E85 is doing quite a bit better than 109 octane race fuel as well which makes sense as the extra fluid volume's cooling effect and add'l compression it provides makes torque.

I also notice their tests started to peter out around 23-24 deg of timing. Makes me wonder if they were approaching MBT for that engine combination. Once you get there adding more timing won't make more power regardless of what's in the tank.

 

[Wizza]

last price I paid for MS109 was $20 per gallon......still in the grand scheme, not a lot to pay for protection

still have 15 gallons ready to go when I want to get spicy

 

[jgilj]

That’s what it’s running for me also 20 a gallon.

 

[moparjim]

There are issues that arise from using E85 also. That usually seams to be overlooked when the "it's the best race fuel recommendations start".
How many have had engine issues from stuck injectors or fuel pumps taking a dump from having E sitting for awhile.
There is a well known shop for another brand near our track. They used to get the injectors cleaned at the track all the time. (Tracks race shop).
Now they can do it themselves.
I discussed going to E with the track owner.
His words were don't race with it and park it for a week or 2 all the time. Race with it and then get gas to run on the street to clean it up.
Ya ya I know, many have done it and had no issues. Blah blah.
When it gets moisture that stuff is death to everything. Slowly or quickly. I don't care if it's made for ethanol or not. I have seen E85 fuel pumps that are stainless completely rotted out as well as lots of injector issues.
These cases are just with pump E10.
That stuff attracts moisture much easier than people think.
Just another view point and something to think about.

 

[Speedy!]

I'm 2 years in and no trouble at all with E85. I do run 93 through once a month though and drive my car at least once a week. If I ever do have problems they'll get posted here for sure though.

I've been aggravated because E85 is over $3 a gallon here right now. Priced the same as 87 gasoline so I've been running 93 in protest LOL.